Larry Sarezky: “Focus on exercising, eating well, and getting enough sleep to help your recovery as well”

Focus on exercising, eating well, and getting enough sleep to help your recovery as well. If you’re a custodial parent, think about allocating some of your household tasks to the kids. If presented frankly as a team effort to get things to a “new normal,” you might find some willing teammates. If you’re lucky enough […]

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Focus on exercising, eating well, and getting enough sleep to help your recovery as well. If you’re a custodial parent, think about allocating some of your household tasks to the kids. If presented frankly as a team effort to get things to a “new normal,” you might find some willing teammates. If you’re lucky enough to have a conscientious co-parent, you might even get some reinforcement there.

As part of our series about the “5 Things You Need To Know To Survive And Thrive After A Divorce Or Breakup”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Larry Sarezky (Say: Suh-RESS-key). He is a veteran divorce lawyer, and an award-winning author, and filmmaker. He uses creativity and a wealth of experience to maximize results and minimize the pain for parents and children navigating separation and divorce.

Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to ‘get to know you’. Can you tell us a bit about how you grew up?

Thanks, I’m happy to have the opportunity.

I grew up in Fairfield County, Connecticut in suburbs about 35 miles from New York City — the kind of place where it was all too easy to grow up as an entitled white guy. But I got a dose of the ugliness of racism very early on when a guy came to our door one day with a petition to keep Jackie Robinson and his family from moving into our neighborhood. Even at four years old, I knew something was very wrong when my mother slammed the door in the guy’s face. Jackie’s daughter Sharon was in my class through elementary school and junior high, and it might well have been the presence of the Robinson family that got me started with civil rights work when I was fourteen.

When I was little, I hung out a lot with my dog Cleo. I had a couple of siblings, but Cleo and I understood each other a lot better, which I guess is why I’ve had dogs ever since. I attended public schools until 10th grade when my parents put me in private school because junior high was not going great. That actually worked out well since I was able to play varsity sports, which I wasn’t good enough to do in public school.

I attended college in Baltimore and law school in Washington, DC where I did criminal defense work for five years. I then moved back to Fairfield County where I joined a firm and began doing family law.

Can you tell us a story about what brought you to this specific career path?

I became a lawyer because I felt the law offered a variety of opportunities to help improve people’s lives. Then when I was about 50, I realized that one (professional) life that really needed improvement was my own. I had become fed up, frankly, with the excessive cost of divorce and the unnecessary bitterness and anxiety that afflicted too many divorcing spouses and their kids. So I stopped accepting contested divorces that take a toll not only on divorcing families but after a while on divorce lawyers as well and began to devote my practice to divorce mediation.

For the most part, the mediations were quicker, cost less, and were less acrimonious. So that was an improvement. But I was still frustrated about folks in traditional divorces who were suffering and paying too much. And I was particularly concerned about their kids because too often it’s the children of divorce who pay the price for their parents’ mistakes. I kept thinking that I didn’t want to be responsible for a generation of kids who grew up asking, “Where were the adults when my parents got divorced?”

And then an opportunity to reach a much larger audience presented itself. A group of lawyers asked me to write and direct a film that would show the impact of custody battles on kids from the perspective of children. I had started doing some filmmaking by that time and had directed children, so the project was natural for me.

The idea was to make parents considering an avoidable custody battle FEEL what that’s like for the kids, rather than being TOLD about it, as in the videos that were out there at the time. We got terrific performances from a couple of young actors playing a brother and sister, and I got a Grammy Award winner pal of mine to co-write an original score with me. So that’s how Talk to Strangers came about. It’s a short film — nearly shorter than this story.

And yet there’s more!

I found that I loved being able to combine creativity with what I had learned during 30 years as a lawyer. So I decided to write a book, which after several incarnations became Divorce, Simply Stated.

Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you started this career?

As a divorce lawyer, I’ve been lucky enough to represent a number of very accomplished and interesting people, and to learn a lot in the process. I’ll share a story about one of them that happened early on in my career.

A Hall of Fame former baseball player who had been divorced several years later came to me because he couldn’t get his trophies and other memorabilia back from his former wife, who claimed that they were somehow missing. After I filed a motion for return of the property with the court, a reporter at the New York Post called me for comment. The senior partner in my firm told me not to talk to the reporter because nothing good ever came of talking to the press. So I didn’t respond, even though I thought that my client — now a very popular New York baseball broadcaster — would get favorable coverage.

But the reporter was persistent. And when he called again late one afternoon when I was alone in the office, I decided to talk to him. I told him how patient my client had been with his former wife who I believed knew very well where all his things were. And I told him that we were prepared to show exactly that at an upcoming court hearing.

A few days later, the headline story on the Post’s famed “Page Six,” reserved for celebrity news and gossip, was about my client and me. The article quoted me extensively complimenting my client, a “consummate gentleman” who had “shown the patience of a saint.” But, the article continued, we were now starting to “throw fastballs” to get the property back.

And lo and behold, at the court hearing a couple of weeks later, my client’s ex showed up with all of the memorabilia that she had somehow managed to find after all the negative publicity that had come her way from the Post article.

My client was delighted, and I was pleased to have received the kind of press coverage that helps young lawyers establish a name for themselves. And the senior partner who told me not to speak to the press? To his credit, he conceded that taking the interview had been the right move after all.

Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?

There’s a scene in the movie “My Cousin Vinny” where the judge in a small southern town (played by the late Fred Gwynne) informs neophyte Brooklyn lawyer Vinny Gambini (Joe Pesci) that a tie and leather jacket did not satisfy the judge’s prior instruction to Vinny that he must dress appropriately in court.

“You were serious about that?” Vinny asks the judge.

When I was a young lawyer, I tried a divorce case before a newly appointed judge. I knew the judge casually because he had practiced in the same town as I did. He was known for his sense of humor, and in fact his wisecracks (including occasional quotes from “My Cousin Vinny”) had brightened up otherwise dull monthly bar association meetings.

By the end of the first trial day, we had completed everything but the closing arguments. The judge asked opposing counsel how long he would need for his argument.

“About twenty minutes, Your Honor,” counsel replied.

The judge turned his gaze on me.

“That’s fine,” I advised the court.

The next morning, as opposing counsel was in the midst of his argument, the judge interrupted him.

“Counsel, you have two minutes remaining,” the judge told him.

“But, Your Honor,” sputtered the shaken lawyer. “I’m only half-way through!”

“Counselor, I asked you yesterday afternoon how long you needed, and you told me twenty minutes. So twenty minutes it is.”

I was as surprised as opposing counsel by the judge’s strict adherence to a 20-minute time frame. But because I represented the defendant and went second, I had the chance to adjust my argument accordingly. Meanwhile, opposing counsel, who had no such opportunity, continued to sputter. So I thought I’d give him a few seconds breather with a bit of levity. Smiling broadly, I got to my feet to address the Court.

“You were serious about that?” I asked the judge in my best Cousin Vinny impression.

The belly laugh I expected from the judge never came. In its place was a cold, hard stare that sent me quickly back to my seat.

The lesson for me was simple. Know your judge. And even if you think you know the judge, don’t take anything for granted until you’ve had a good deal of experience with him or her in court. One of the things people pay for when retaining veteran lawyers is their familiarity with local judges. So that knowledge, like all the rest of the lawyer’s accumulated wisdom, must be used judiciously, in service of the client’s case… and not just for a laugh.

Do you have a favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Do you have a story about how that was relevant in your life or your work?

At the beginning of each chapter of Divorce, Simply Stated, I’ve inserted a relevant quote. One of my favorites is from Susan B. Anthony that I put at the beginning of the chapter on spousal support. The quote is: “There is not a woman born who desires to eat the bread of dependence.”

During my career, the percentage of women who were the family breadwinners increased dramatically. But statistically, there are still more females than males who seek support, though a good part of that is due to women more often having custody of small children.

But that doesn’t mean these women like the idea of depending upon their former spouses for money. A client — I’ll call her Barbara — once came to me about ten years after her divorce. Barbara hadn’t received any spousal support in her settlement apparently because her husband — I’ll call him Marty — had stonewalled her during settlement negotiation. Eventually, Barbara told me, she gave up and settled for a provision in her settlement agreement awarding each spouse 1 dollar/year in alimony. That’s called “nominal support,” and it’s used in case a former spouse falls on hard times and needs support that wasn’t necessary at the time of the divorce.

In the years following the divorce, Barbara struggled initially but managed to get herself licensed as a hairdresser. By the time she came to me, she had become successful enough to have her own “chair” and was earning more than some lawyers I knew.

Meanwhile, Marty had lost several sales jobs at auto dealerships because of his lousy temperament and was having difficulty finding a new job in his field because word had got around. So he filed a motion to modify that 1 dollar to something more substantial.

At the hearing, Barbara quoted disparaging remarks Marty had made about her during the divorce, calling her a “gold-digger” out to soak him dry with alimony when (in Marty’s opinion) she was “perfectly able” to earn a living. The judge took note. He found that Marty’s difficulties were his own fault and that Marty was “perfectly able” to find a sales job outside the auto sales field if necessary. He then denied Marty’s motion to increase the 1 dollar/year in support.

Maybe if during his divorce Marty had demonstrated the empathy suggested in that Susan B. Anthony quote, he would have done better once the tables had turned.

Are you working on any exciting new projects now? How do you think that will help people?

I’m considering making a sequel to Talk to Strangers in which the brother and sister look back on their parents’ divorce and how it has continued to affect them in their young adult lives. Both of the “children” in the film (who are now in their early twenties) have continued their acting careers and I’m told would be available. And we have plenty of footage that would provide wonderful flashbacks. So that’s one project that I think could offer a powerful statement about the lasting effect of divorces upon children whose needs went unmet during the divorce.

After I wrote the 2nd (2019) edition of Divorce, Simply Stated I told friends that if I ever start talking about writing the 3rd edition, that they should take drastic measures to save me from myself. So another new edition is probably not going to happen.

Ok. Thank you for that. Let’s now shift to the main part of our discussion. Can you tell us a bit about your experience going through a divorce, or helping someone who was going through a divorce? What did you learn about yourself during and after the experience? Do you feel comfortable sharing a story?

Maybe the most important thing I’ve learned is that empathy is like an unstable chemical that professionals have to both nurture and control.

When I began my matrimonial law practice, I experienced every case personally. A woman in an old-school marriage whose domineering husband wanted her at home with the kids became my responsibility to prepare for self-sufficiency. An older guy whose body was beginning to break down after years of working in the auto repair shops he owned became my responsibility to convince to accept the possibility that he might need spousal support from his wealthy wife if he became disabled.

Many of my clients appreciated the caring that I demonstrated. But after a while, I realized that taking on my clients’ burdens was not healthy for me. So I pulled back emotionally to a more sustainable approach of fighting hard for my clients but without the emotional over-involvement.

Later on, in my career, I became aware that the pendulum had swung too far in the other direction. I was no longer offering moments of compassion in which I asked my clients how they were bearing up under the demands of their divorces. Those little touches, which involved just a few moments of my time, were valuable to clients and, perhaps over-compensating for my earlier mistakes, I had let them slip away. So I reintroduced that into my relationships with my clients.

In your opinion, what are the most common mistakes people make after they go through a divorce? What can be done to avoid that?

Some divorced parents allow their new significant others to become over-involved in carrying out their parenting plan. That can introduce a toxic new element into post-divorce co-parenting that causes things to go south, quickly. And that’s a big mistake.

One case in which I represented the wife — I’ll call her “Bonnie” — illustrates that point quite well. We had settled Bonnie’s divorce case relatively easily. The settlement included a parenting plan for Bonnie’s two children pursuant to which Bonnie got custody of the children and their father — “Clyde” — got specified periods of time with the kids.

So I was surprised to get a call from Bonnie about a year after the divorce in which she seemed more upset than I remembered her ever being during the entire divorce.

“That b**** is screwing up our whole parenting plan!” Bonnie told me, referring to Clyde’s girlfriend, “Susan.”

As Bonnie gave me the details, it became clear that Clyde had handed over to Susan responsibility for making all the visitation arrangements and dealing with the many issues that come up with parenting plans, such as changes in schedules, the kids getting ill, holiday details, etc.

Bonnie’s anger was undoubtedly fueled by her suspicion that Clyde’s relationship with Susan had begun while Bonnie and Clyde were still married. Susan, confronted with Bonnie’s hostility, returned it in kind. As you can imagine, things went downhill in a hurry.

Clyde’s lawyer and I agreed that Clyde would resume dealing with Bonnie on children-related issues, and eventually, that calmed things down. But thereafter, I included in my separation agreements language to the effect that parenting plan issues be handled by the parents only, unless they agreed otherwise. That kind of provision can avoid the mistake that Clyde made, and I strongly recommend it.

Many of the other mistakes I’ve seen after divorce are errors of omission. Once a divorce case is settled, as upwards of 90% of cases are, its very tempting to throw away every reminder of it. But somewhere in that pile of papers may be a form or letter from your lawyer listing things you need to do after your divorce. That includes things like signing deeds and automobile registration transfer forms, closing joint bank, credit card and on-line payment accounts, changing life insurance and retirement plan beneficiaries, and having a qualified domestic relations order (“QDRO”) prepared and approved by the court to transfer non-IRA retirement plan interests.

Those details are essential and should be taken care of without delay.

People generally label “divorce” as being “negative”. And yes, while there are downsides, there can also be a lot of positive that comes out of it as well. What would you say that they are? Can you share an example or share a story?

That’s a really good question, Ilyssa. I’ve often reminded clients, some of whom were devastated by the breakup of their marriage, that ending a dysfunctional marriage was a positive life event, even if it didn’t seem like it at the time.

And I discuss divorce’s positives in the book. Here’s what I say right off the bat in the Introduction:

After you’ve completed your divorce journey, you may realize how much you’ve learned along the way about matters besides divorce — things like personal finance, parenting, handling conflict and other adversity . . . and about yourself.

“Though it might be difficult to imagine while you’re in the thick of it, divorce can provide extraordinary opportunities for learning and personal growth. Over the years, I’ve enjoyed watching people acquire insights, knowledge, and skills that served them well during their divorces and long afterward.”

I’ll give you an example of what I’m talking about.

I represented a woman — let’s call her “Clara” — who was anxious about many things, and absolutely terrified at the prospect of having to testify if her case didn’t settle. Unfortunately, it didn’t, and in preparation for trial, opposing counsel wanted to take Clara’s deposition; a proceeding in the lawyer’s office where Clara would have to answer counsel’s questions, under oath, before a court reporter. Despite my efforts to prepare and calm her, Clara lost her cool about 20 minutes into the deposition, jumped up and stormed out of the lawyer’s office, slamming the door so hard that it dislodged a shelf of the lawyer’s curios, sending them cascading to the floor.

At trial, the husband’s lawyer was practically salivating at the prospect of putting Clara on the stand to show the judge how out-of-control she was, just as his client had described her in his testimony earlier that morning. What counsel didn’t know was that in the interim I had had a heart-to-heart with Clara. I told her that she had a chance to beat her courtophobia, and in the process, help her case. But she would have to let me give her some intensive witness coaching, which wouldn’t be entirely pleasant.

When Clara took the stand, she was a completely different person than had appeared at the deposition. Her calm, thoughtful answers impressed the judge while putting the lie to the husband’s characterization of her as an impossible emotional basket case. So much so, that at the lunch break following her testimony, the husband’s lawyer asked if I was still open to settling.

I was, and we did.

Clara came away with a very favorable settlement and, maybe even more importantly, a new-found confidence in her ability to overcome her anxieties.

Some people are scared to ‘get back out there’ and date again after being with their former spouse for many years and hearing dating horror stories. What would you say to motivate someone to get back out there and start a new beginning?

That’s a little above my pay grade as a lawyer, so let me answer as a parent.

We parents think we’re pretty good at shielding our kids from our troubles. But as I used to tell clients, my dog Chuck knew when I had had a tough day. So why would we think that our kids don’t sense our unhappiness? They do know when we’re unhappy, and that often makes them — especially the younger ones — unhappy too.

Most (though not all) folks need a meaningful relationship at some point after divorce to be happy. But as you say, some are scared off by tales of dates from hell. For those folks, realizing how integral their own happiness is to that of their children, can actually be a good motivator for getting past the initial dating dreads.

If you’re unhappy and that’s making your kids unhappy, take one for the team and go on a few dates!

What is the one thing people going through a divorce should be open to changing?

Their partner choices.

I’m joking. Well, partly joking.

After the dust has settled on your divorce and all its blame games, give some thought generally to the role you might have played in the breakup of your marriage. That can be anything from making a bad choice at the outset, to behavior patterns during the marriage that made small problems seem big, and big problems seem insurmountable. There’s no need to judge yourself harshly — we’re all human and make mistakes. But when we become more mindful of our shortcomings and the things we didn’t do so well the first time around, we’re much less likely to repeat those behaviors.

Intellectually, we all know this stuff. But the period after divorce can provide a great introspective lens through which to view your own conduct. If you’re open to looking through that lens, you’re likely to find some things that could use fixing.

Ok, here is the main question of our discussion. If you had a close friend come to you for advice after a divorce, what are 5 things you would advise in order to survive and thrive after the divorce? Can you please give a story or example for each?

The first thing to do is try to restore some balance to your life. Think of the break-up of your marriage and your divorce as an illness and the surgery necessary to get over it. You need time to recover from all that.

Unfortunately, if you’re a custodial parent, especially one who’s working full time, you’re not likely to have the luxury of a round-the-world cruise for R&R. Nonetheless, there are some things you can do to speed your recovery.

I’m a big believer in meditation to work toward, among other things, some measure of tranquility. If you can take 20 minutes (or even 10 minutes) once or twice a day for that, it will be worth your while.

Focus on exercising, eating well, and getting enough sleep to help your recovery as well. If you’re a custodial parent, think about allocating some of your household tasks to the kids. If presented frankly as a team effort to get things to a “new normal,” you might find some willing teammates. If you’re lucky enough to have a conscientious co-parent, you might even get some reinforcement there.

The second thing I’d tell a close friend (and I have) is to renew your commitment to looking after your kids. You’ll need to build a new co-parenting relationship with your ex after your divorce. Think about how your parenting plan (if your case settled) or the court’s custody and visitation orders (if you went to trial), can cause the least stress for your kids.

For example, you might feel that your spouse’s difficulty picking up the kids for visits may serve him/her right for insisting on a schedule that he/she couldn’t live up to. And you might be right. But the chronic pick-up and drop-off tardiness might be stressing out your kids. If your schedule allows you to help your co-parent fulfill his/her obligations and vice versa, that’s a good thing for your children. So consider offering some help. Who knows, it might open the door to a more cooperative co-parenting relationship that will serve as a much better model for your kids.

Monitor your kids’ behavior after the divorce. Look for signs of dysfunction such as declining grades, changing appetites, problems with sleep, and the like. Try to agree with your co-parent on an experienced counselor or therapist to be on “stand-by” in case your children do experience problems. Remember that children need repeated assurances that their parents will continue to be there to love, care for, and protect them. Make sure to send that message with actions, not just words. When kids watch their parents argue bitterly and then turn around and tell the kids how much they love them, they may wonder why their parents don’t love them enough to stop the fighting that frightens and disturbs them.

Parents who are able to demonstrate their love with practical solutions get the satisfaction of helping keep their kids healthy under trying circumstances. And the kids get the love, nourishment, and sense of security they need.

Next, I’d remind my friend to take care of the kind of post-divorce details I mentioned earlier.

The fourth thing I’d advise is to use what you’ve learned during the divorce. We talked earlier about divorce as an opportunity for learning and personal growth. Once the divorce is completed, it’s time to put what you’ve learned to work.

For example, divorcing spouses are required to file with the court a summary of their finances called a “financial affidavit” or something similar. It includes a list of living expenses that can be used for budgeting after the divorce. If prepared conscientiously, it’s well-researched and up to date — and thus a very valuable resource. If adjusted as circumstances change, it will remain a useful personal finance tool.

In nearly every state, divorcing parents are required to take several hours of parenting education. These courses offer some valuable advice for post-separation parenting. If you took notes, take them out, review them and remind your co-parent of content that relates to your situation. Advice from a neutral source (meaning anyone besides you or your demon lawyer) is much more likely to persuade your co-parent.

Lastly — and this one might surprise you — I’d tell my friend to thank the professionals who did a good job during the divorce. Whether they be lawyers, mediators, therapists or court personnel, these professionals deal with a steady stream of people in pain. I’ve seen some of those folks become disheartened, feeling that their efforts go unappreciated, and as a result, become less committed to doing their best.

Much as I poke fun in my book at my lawyer colleagues (and much as they deserve it), most of them at least started out being conscientious and caring about their clients. We don’t want those folks to start “mailing it in.” I can tell you from experience that a thank-you note from a client can reenergize a lawyer who may be feeling battle-worn and unappreciated. If you think your lawyer did a good job for you, say so. You may be supplying her a shot in the arm that will benefit her next client!

The stress of a divorce can take a toll on both one’s mental and emotional health. In your opinion or experience, what are a few things people going through a divorce can do to alleviate this pain and anguish?

I think that educating yourself is key to lowering anxiety levels. The more you strip the mystery from divorce, the more manageable and less frightening it becomes. But you need to choose the right sources of information. A wealth of information about law and procedure in your state is available on your state’s bar association and judicial branch websites, and it’s free.

If you have a lawyer in a traditional court-based case, you’ll be able to assist her much more effectively if you understand what’s achievable in your divorce and how best to achieve it. To be on the same page as your lawyer (always a good idea), ask her what she recommends you read on the subject. If you think your case may not settle, take a road-trip to the courthouse and watch a trial or contested hearing in a divorce case to get the feel of how all that works. That will measurably decrease your anxiety when your day in the Courtroom Funhouse comes around.

If you’re mediating, make sure you understand how the process works with your particular mediator. Ask your mediator plenty of questions. Read about techniques that mediators use to encourage agreement. Also read up on negotiation, to learn how to present your needs and positions most effectively, and how to advocate for yourself.

Another commonly experienced emotion during divorce is helplessness. Besides education, the best remedy to avoid that, is to become proactive in your divorce.

I had a client — I’ll call her “Lois” — whose husband (“Benny”) owned a piece of property deep in the woods a couple of states away. To try to avoid paying alimony, Benny claimed that his restaurant business was failing and that he could barely make ends meet. But Lois told me that she had heard that Benny was fixing up his shack in the woods. I asked Lois if she could take a daytrip to the property and (safely) take some pictures of the fix-up work. She said she thought she could do that.

At trial, I asked Benny about the “shack” on the property. He waxed eloquent about how the shack probably wouldn’t withstand another winter, and that he hadn’t bothered to do any fix-up other than minor repairs. I then proceeded to show him (and the judge) the pictures Lois had in fact taken. The pictures showed an extensive renovation project (including an entirely new second floor) that was transforming the “shack” into a sizable residence. That evidence demonstrated that Benny’s restaurant was generating plenty of disposable cash from which he could afford to pay alimony. And it also showed that Benny had lied under oath. Repeatedly.

The judge, who like all judges really disliked being lied to, entered a very ample alimony order.

Had Lois not been proactive in telling me about the construction work, and hadn’t gone to the trouble of photographing it, the result might well have been quite different. And once she undertook the project, Lois was able to shed a good deal of her daily anxiety about how her divorce would pan out.

Do you have any favorite books, podcasts, or resources related to this topic that you would recommend to our readers?

Besides the publications available at the bar association, the judicial websites I mentioned earlier, and of course my own book, there are some really good resources out there.

Some quality podcast series on divorce that I recommend are “Conversations About Divorce with Mandy Walker,” “Divorce and Your Money with Shawn Leamon,” and “Journey Beyond Divorce with Karen McMahon.”

For those who like a precise, analytic approach to divorce, Terry McNiff’s book “Picture Your Divorce to See the Right Decisions” is a really interesting and helpful approach to divorce. For parenting after divorce, I’d recommend Rosalind Sedacca’s “Post-Divorce Parenting: Success Strategies for Getting It Right.”

Because of the position that you are in, you are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂

I’d love to see an educational initiative in this country to help restore belief in truth, science, and democracy. We could bring the aspirations of this country closer to fruition if we could all share the same reality again and get rid of leaders who capitalize on ignorance and encourage divisiveness.

We are very blessed that very prominent leaders read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them 🙂

Malala. She’s the young Pakistani woman whose work to educate young girls living under the Taliban earned her a Nobel Prize (and a near-fatal bullet from the Taliban). I’m always impressed by people who show that level of courage but for such a young person, it’s truly remarkable. I’d love to know how she’s dealt with fear on a daily basis.

My second choice would be Brad Pitt — just to see what it’s like to always be the coolest guy in the room.

Thank you for these great insights and for the time you spent with this interview. We wish you only continued success!

Thank you — I hope your readers find this helpful!

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