Jonathan Cefalu CEO of Preamble: “BUILDING A TEAM”

Once you’ve figured out how you can best make a difference, the next step is to put together a team who are passionate about the same issue you’ve identified. One suggestion I’d offer here is to figure out who are the top researchers in the field and reach out to them directly, and start to […]

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Once you’ve figured out how you can best make a difference, the next step is to put together a team who are passionate about the same issue you’ve identified. One suggestion I’d offer here is to figure out who are the top researchers in the field and reach out to them directly, and start to establish email correspondence with them. Sometimes you can help them with their research by volunteering hours of your own time, or by donating money to their lab. In return, they might eventually be willing to be an advisor to your company, which can help immensely with recruiting the best & the brightest people in the field to work with you, by tapping into their networks.

In recent years, Big Tech has gotten a bad rep. But of course many tech companies are doing important work making monumental positive changes to society, health, and the environment. To highlight these, we started a new interview series about “Technology Making An Important Positive Social Impact”. We are interviewing leaders of tech companies who are creating or have created a tech product that is helping to make a positive change in people’s lives or the environment. As a part of this series, I had the pleasure of interviewing Jonathan Cefalu.

Jonathan is a seasoned founder and the CEO of Preamble, a new startup focused on A.I. ethics and A.I. safety (see the book Human Compatible for a definition of A.I. safety). Cefalu’s first startup was acquired by Snapchat to become the Spectacles Hardware Division, where he experimented with advanced computer vision, which will be deployed in upcoming applications of Preamble’s technology.

Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series. Before we dive in, our readers would love to learn a bit more about you. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood backstory and how you grew up?

I grew up with my mom and dad and my two younger brothers, Andrew and Wesley, who are both brilliant! We were very lucky in that we lived right next door to my grandparents, so my brothers and I spent a lot of time at their house, usually an hour every day, and because of this I got to spend a lot of quality time with my grandfather Richard while he was still alive. He was my hero. He served in the US Navy for most of his career, including all of WWII, during which he had numerous dangerous and heroic adventures in the pacific theatre. His war stories were crazy, as were his stories of peacetime — for example, he once witnessed a ship get split in half and saw an officer literally JUMP from the tilting deck of the sinking destroyer onto the higher deck of my grandfather’s aircraft carrier, like a damn superhero. My grandfather had the most pure and ethical soul of anyone I have ever known — completely selfless, never angry, endlessly forgiving (after the War he completely forgave the opposing forces and had only good things to say about them), endlessly patient, and so kind. Every day if I am faced with a tricky moral conundrum I ask myself what he would do, and I hope to be even half the man he was.

When I was just a child, he patiently taught me carpentry and soldering and plumbing and landscaping and really instilled in me the idea that you can build anything. We would build model vehicles and work with H.O. scale trains and we even built a little scale model of a white & brown wooden gazebo he had in his yard. It was this mentorship that I received from him over the years that really led to me becoming an engineer.

Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you began your career?

Haha I have a ton of crazy stories, many of which you wouldn’t believe. At my first company, Vergence Labs, we raised very little money and were constantly strapped for cash. We had to do everything possible to conserve expenses, and we lived in beds in the back of our office, cramped into a small area around a corner hidden from view behind a whiteboard. When we started manufacturing our first run of Epiphany Eyewear glasses, the center of our already small office / dorm became filled with a Henry-Ford-style simplistic assembly line, essentially four card tables pushed end to end and surrounded by chairs, and we would assemble the glasses by sitting at these chairs and assembling the electronics and the injection-molded plastic parts together using tiny screws and glue. Things got even more cramped when inventory started to pile up; at one point I had to enter my bed by vaulting over a 3-foot stack of boxes of eyewear cases!

Due to our somewhat comical cash situation, we had no choice but to work with component vendors who charged rock-bottom prices but were always looking to scam us. I became quite proficient at detecting and repelling these scamming attempts and never took it personally, and would sometimes have to continue working with a vendor that constantly tried to rip us off because they were sometimes still the only qualified vendor at a suitable price.

One really interesting lesson that I learned from all this is that it is often possible to build quite advanced technology prototypes at surprisingly low cost. You might have to put yourself in various comical situations, such as dealing with 5th-tier vendors and always risking getting scammed, but if you’re willing to navigate these weird waters you can get amazing things made for only hundreds or single-digit-thousands of dollars!

None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story about that?

My success is 100% entirely dependent on the many good people who have provided me with opportunities and believed in me and taught me everything I know. In addition to my grandfather, whom I spoke about before, the other person I am most grateful towards is Evan Spiegel. When Vergence was just a small company, with exciting technology but struggling finances, Evan believed in us and brought us into Snap and gave us the funding to execute on our vision without money being a burden anymore. He allowed us to follow our dreams and gifted us the independence to make our own technical and strategic decisions. Without him and his long-term dream for Snap to be a leader in AR, the augmented reality version of Spectacles would never have been able to be possible. In the years that we’ve worked on Spectacles together, many other companies have folded, cancelled their AR glasses projects, or at least scaled back their ambitions (with the most famous example being Google Glass, and another major example being Intel Vaunt). Throughout all of this, Evan’s belief in the future of augmented reality never wavered, and he has continued to empower our team for year after year because he knows that quitters never win, and by persevering when other companies give up or stall, we can gain the lead in this marathon race to an incredible science-fiction future where superpowers and magic are all around us.

Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?

My favorite life lesson quote is a quote from Elon Musk: “If something is important enough, even if the odds are against you, you should still do it.” Growing up with my grandfather instilled in me a strong sense of duty. I firmly believe that every person is duty-bound to do the right thing, even if it is unlikely to succeed, or uncomfortable, or comes at great financial cost or personal burden.

You are a successful business leader. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?

The three traits I would like to highlight are: (1) entrusting others with great responsibility, (2) perseverance, and (3) doing the right thing even when it comes at the cost of personal financial loss or legal risk.

(1) Entrusting others with great responsibility. This is the foundation of my leadership style and has been the “secret weapon” in my success. While growing the Spectacles team from 4 people to about 15, it was critical to hire people who were super motivated and self-sufficient, where each person on the team was a leader in their own right. Each of these people hired during this time was entrusted with the responsibility of basically being their own boss — determining what to do and how to do it — and what kept us all pulling in the same direction was a richly detailed shared vision.

(2) Perseverance. There’s a great rule of thumb in the startup community which is that no one can force your startup to go out of business — it’s only over when you decide that it’s over. What this means is that if you have an idea worth implementing and you really believe it, no one can force you to stop. For example, you might end up in a situation where you have to declare bankruptcy (Chapter 11), but bankruptcy doesn’t mean you have to stop doing business — many large businesses that are still around today have declared bankruptcy in the past, such as General Motors, Delta Air Lines, and Pacific Gas and Electric. Even if your company truly does go out of business, if the idea is one you and your team really believe in, you can incorporate a second business working on the same idea and then hire the same people! Walt Disney did this: His first animation company was called Laugh-O-Gram Studio, but it went out of business, so after he got back on his feet he started a second animation company making the same type of animations and he hired back the same team members, including Ub Iwerks, Hugh Harman, Rudolf Ising, Carman Maxwell, and Friz Freleng. The second, resurrected incarnation of his company was Disney Brothers Cartoon Studio, and the rest is history.

(3) Doing the right thing even when it comes at the cost of personal financial loss or legal risk. This is the most important character trait & very few people take it seriously. I will explain this trait with a story which is not my own but that of an incredible hero: Stanislav Petrov, the person who *literally* saved planet Earth and its billions of people. In 1983, an early warning satellite system detected that 5 nuclear missiles had been launched by the United States and were heading to Soviet Union. Stanislav Petrov, a young Soviet officer who (unlike his military colleagues) had a few years of civilian career experience too, was the watch officer on duty manning the satellite system console at the early warning station. His job and his legal responsibility was to report what his computer system told him and pass the message up the chain of command to Moscow, who would respond to any nuclear launch by obliterating the United States from the face of the Earth. The US, of course, would respond in kind, by obliterating the USSR and the whole Eastern Bloc. Time must have seemed to freeze for Mr. Petrov, as he stared at the scenario of nightmares — a massive computer display flashing LAUNCH, LAUNCH, LAUNCH in red, while alarms blared. He had simply to follow his orders — to pick up the phone and tell his superior officers the truth, which was that the computer was reporting with high confidence that 5 missiles were inbound. Instead, Mr. Petrov did something unprecedented. He lied. Breaking with his orders, he called his superiors and told them that the launch alert was a false alarm — despite the fact that this was not what the system was saying. In doing so, he committed treason — and he literally saved the world. By pure coincidence, it turned out that the alert really was a false alarm, despite what the computer had told him at the time. Mr. Petrov was quickly dismissed from the military and could easily have faced execution for his treasonous act against the state, but thankfully he was spared this fate and was allowed to grow old, celebrated in the west but ignored for many years in his home country. Reflecting on his fateful lie, Mr. Petrov once said “It is nice of them to consider me a hero. I don’t know that I am. Since I am the only one in this country who has found himself in this situation, it is difficult to know if others would have acted differently.” He was humble to the end, but the fact is, very few people in Mr. Petrov’s place would have made the same decision he did. The world needs more Mr. Petrovs — people who are willing to do anything — to break the law even — to save the world. In the capitalist economy today, executives of many of the Fortune 500 companies commit great destruction against the environment, and justify it to themselves by saying that this is their legal obligation in the name of their fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value. Mr. Petrov would be ashamed of you. If you are willing to burn the earth because you are afraid of the minor consequences of being taken to court over a question of shareholder value, then you do not deserve to be in a position of managerial responsibility.

Ok super. Let’s now shift to the main part of our discussion about the tech tools that you are helping to create that can make a positive social impact on our society. To begin, what problems are you aiming to solve?

Over the next 2 to 5 decades, A.I. systems are becoming capable of performing more and more tasks that were previously only able to be done by people. This is going to have huge effects on society, many of which will be negative, such as massive unemployment. Preamble exists to help society make the transition into this new era of human-level A.I. in a way that preserves and enhances human wellbeing and social justice.

How do you think your technology can address this?

Our plan is to mitigate the harmful effects of A.I. in every major area where human-like A.I. will disrupt or harm human wellbeing. In the future we will be involved in providing A.I. ethics technology in dangerous fields such as automated hiring and firing, semi-automated courts & legal systems, automated mortgage & lending decisions, and even the most dangerous field which is automation of military systems. Basically, everywhere that some other company builds a harmful or potentially harmful A.I. system, we will try to step in to minimize the harm that that system causes in people’s lives.

The first area we are working on is mitigating the harmful side effects of the automation of news & entertainment content curation. For decades, traditional media such as newspapers and television relied on human editorial staff to determine which content would be served to their audience, and exactly how that content would be ranked. Ranking means whether content is really prominent, such as at the top of the front page of the paper, or really hidden, such as at the bottom of the tenth page.

When media shifted in recent years to be primarily delivered online, this provided the opportunity for news & content ranking to be determined automatically, with the role of human editorial staff replaced by an algorithm. These “ranking algorithms” optimize the news feed to be unique for each user, such that your Twitter feed looks different than mine, even if we follow the same accounts. By uniquely optimizing the news feed for each user, companies seek to maximize business metrics such as user engagement, user growth, user retention, and per-user revenue.

Unfortunately, these objectives are ultimately designed to maximize profit, and are sometimes harmful to the interests of either the users themselves or society at large. For example, maximizing user engagement often harms users by causing users to get addicted to social media. We are building technology which can fix this, by implementing a concept called “A.I. value alignment”. The concept of A.I. value alignment is a very important one for people to become familiar with, and I highly recommend the book on this subject called Human Compatible: Artificial Intelligence and the Problem of Control, by Prof. Stuart Russell. I’ll provide a simplified explanation here but I highly recommend checking out the book too.

A.I. value alignment means getting an A.I. system to do what people really want. If you’ve seen the animated Disney classic Fantasia, you may recall an iconic story within it called The Sorcerer’s Apprentice, where Mickey uses magic to enchant an army of brooms to clean his workshop for him. Unfortunately, the brooms get carried away and start to flood the workshop by using way too much water, and Mickey struggles to make them stop. This story has very close parallels to the problem of A.I. value alignment. You could imagine the brooms as robots, and you can see that it is detrimental if the robots do not understand exactly what their human user wants, especially if the user doesn’t have a way to stop them. This same problem exists outside of robotics and applies to any area with sufficiently powerful A.I., including the A.I. systems used for social media ranking. In the case of social media ranking, the A.I. algorithms responsible for ranking are harming the user’s wellbeing by promoting social media addiction and other harmful tendencies, and the user currently has no way to shut these algorithms off except for taking a break from social media entirely.

Preamble solves the misalignment of incentives in social media ranking by allowing users to specify which ethical values they really care about, and configuring the ranking of content in each user’s feed to match their individual ethical preferences & beliefs. We work with nonprofit organizations and subject matter experts to help identify which types of content match well with specific ethical values. We call these nonprofits and subject matter experts “Values Providers”, since each one provides a definition of a specific set of ethical values. Each user selects which Values Providers they agree with, and then the user’s social media feed is ranked according to a mix of the ethical values defined by those Values Providers they selected.

Social media ranking is the first field where we are applying A.I. value alignment technology to achieve social good. However, this is just the beginning, and in future years we are going to apply A.I. value alignment technology to ensure that A.I. serves human interests in fields as diverse as robotics, business process automation, and the fight against climate change.

Can you tell us the backstory about what inspired you to originally feel passionate about this cause?

One thing I find very exciting about the world is something that I learned while in college, which is that our universe is very young. In other words, you & I, the people having this conversation or reading this article, are living at an incredibly lucky place in history which is near the beginning of time. The universe is “only” about 14 billion years old, which is nothing compared to the fact that it is estimated that the total brightness of the stars in our galaxy will only start to fade about 800 billion years from now! [Citation: ] In order words, we are only about 2% of the way through the history book of our universe — we are barely at the beginning of chapter one!

Because we are living so early in time, this means that everything that we do that affects the future will have an absolutely MASSIVE downstream effect. Hopefully humans will go on to send settlers to all of the habitable planets in our galaxy and other galaxies beyond, and it will all have originated with us 7 billion people living here in what we could call the Dawn Age. Everything you do, be it creating a masterful oil painting, or a recording a beautifully heartbreaking piece of music, or saving an endangered language from being forgotten, has the potential to be carried forwards in history across 800 billion years by trillions upon trillions of our decedents.

When you think about it this way, it really motivates you to do things that have the biggest possible effect on the far future, such as working to minimize the chance of a nuclear war. Thus, I spend almost all of my time and money on efforts to bring about a positive future, including lobbying the government to reduce our nuclear arsenal, investing in companies trying to end factory farming and create a shift to veganism, and investing in research labs working on human longevity. It is for this reason that I became strongly interested in A.I. Ethics. A.I. is a technology that has a moderate amount of impact in the present but is expected to have an enormous impact in the future, and many people (myself included) believe that A.I.’s impact in the future is going to be primarily negative. A.I. will cause massive unemployment, and may lead to unwanted military escalation which could increase the chances of an accidental war between major countries that neither side’s human commanders really wanted, but which was thrust upon them by the rapid actions of misbehaving algorithms. It is because A.I. has so much potential for harm that I wanted to step in and get involved in building a company that can try to mitigate the harmful impacts of tomorrow’s most powerful A.I. systems, and even turn A.I. into a means of promoting peace, happiness, and social equity.

In summary: Because our universe is so young (2%!), I think we should all try to work on what will have the most impact on the future, since the future is so incredibly vast compared to the present day. A.I. is going to have a big impact on the future and that impact may be negative, so I want to get involved in turning that around, and I think this is the biggest way I can help the future.

How do you think this might change the world?

The next 80 years will determine the course of history — whether humanity flourishes and goes on to settle the galaxy, or whether we turn upon each other and ruin our civilization through war. A.I. will be a big part of writing that history, and we need to ensure that A.I. acts in the interest of human values instead of acting against humanity. Thus, A.I. alignment technology is one of the most important things that can be worked on. If you’d like to learn about A.I. alignment technology, I highly recommend Prof. Stuart Russell’s book Human Compatible, which I mentioned earlier, and if you’d like to learn about why this current century is arguably the most important century of any in the past, present, or future, I recommend Toby Ord’s book The Precipice: Existential Risk and the Future of Humanity.

Keeping “Black Mirror” and the “Law of Unintended Consequences” in mind, can you see any potential drawbacks about this technology that people should think more deeply about?

A.I. itself can have a lot of negative impacts on the future, and I really wish people would take them more seriously. One of the big potential harms is massive unemployment, as I believe that there is really no task that A.I. won’t be able to do better and cheaper than humans. As an example, for a long time people said that A.I. would never be capable of creativity, and as a philosophical point they might be right, but as a practical matter, the latest results from OpenAI’s DALL-E image creation tool [ ] look really creative and you could see the next version of this starting to put some graphic designers out of work. If even creative endeavors are no longer safe, we really need to be thinking of how long each of us has left until the demand for our own labor starts to decline. We really really need to get out in front of this and come up with a system for taxing A.I. systems so that we ensure that human labor is cost-competitive. Why do we have an income tax (a tax on human labor) but we have no tax on automation? This strongly incentivizes companies to fire humans and replace their roles with software! Instead, we should have no income tax, and a high tax on automation. These ideas are explored further in the book Taxing Robots: Helping the Economy to Adapt to the Use of Artificial Intelligence by Swiss economist Prof. Xavier Oberson.

In terms of what Preamble is building specifically, our first product is a better algorithm that social media companies can integrate in order to allow news feed ranking to better promote users’ mental health and society’s well-being. The risk of building a technology like the one we are making is that if we are successful in solving some of these big problems with social media, it may result in people adopting social media usage even more heavily in their lives, if they see it as no longer being bad for them. They also may allow their kids to use social media at a younger and younger age. If we really do fix the problems with social media and it really is no longer bad for people, then maybe it’s ok if people adopt social media even more heavily than they do today, but you might disagree with this if you think that people should try to stay offline and spend more time together in the real world or communing with nature in the outdoors.

Here is the main question for our discussion. Based on your experience and success, can you please share “Five things you need to know to successfully create technology that can make a positive social impact”? (Please share a story or an example, for each.)

1. IDENTIFY HIGHEST IMPACT OPPORTUNITY: Start by figuring out what can have the largest possible impact out of everything you could work on. There’s a whole community dedicated to figuring this out. They are called the Effective Altruism community. I highly recommend that before you start working on any particular idea for social good, first spend some weeks reading the latest research in Effective Altruism so you can know how best to make the largest possible difference in a certain amount of time. Some great places to start are the Effective Altruism Forum [ ] as well as the books in this reading list [ ].

2. BUILDING A TEAM: Once you’ve figured out how you can best make a difference, the next step is to put together a team who are passionate about the same issue you’ve identified. One suggestion I’d offer here is to figure out who are the top researchers in the field and reach out to them directly, and start to establish email correspondence with them. Sometimes you can help them with their research by volunteering hours of your own time, or by donating money to their lab. In return, they might eventually be willing to be an advisor to your company, which can help immensely with recruiting the best & the brightest people in the field to work with you, by tapping into their networks.

3. APPROACHES TO FUNDING: Another important step for getting started is figuring out how to raise funding to work on your transformative technology. We were lucky enough to receive funding from Trousdale Ventures, a private VC firm out of Los Angeles. There are many great blogs dedicated to raising money from angel investors and venture capitalists, so I won’t recapitulate any of that existing advice, so instead I’ll just offer a piece of advice about the very first step. I would recommend that the best way to get started at the very beginning is to bootstrap — that is, keep your living expenses as low as you can, and fund your work using your savings and/or income from a part-time job. By doing this, you will likely be able to make enough progress to get to a working prototype which you can test with actual end users, and having user validation is the key to unlocking angel investment (or in some cases, philanthropic grants, if what you are working on is purely charitable).

4. PAY ATTENTION TO THE BOTTOM LINE: Related to the previous point, you and your partners should always instill in yourselves a mindset of keeping expenses as low as you possibly can. This will allow you to stretch any investments you receive to last for much longer than you might think possible, and this is really important because if you are going to go the route of creating a venture-backed business, I strongly recommend that your business be cash-flow positive before you attempt to raise Series A. It is much easier to be cash-flow positive if you keep your expenses as low as possible.

5. CONSIDER ALTERNATIVE PATHS: Finally, I’d like to offer a suggestion about an alternate path. My points #2, #3, and #4 above were all about creating a new business (or a new nonprofit organization), but the other option you should consider is that oftentimes it might be faster and more scalable to build your new technology inside of an existing organization. If you already have a job at a company where you get along well with the management, you might consider approaching them and asking if they would be willing to give you the funding and headcount to create a new team inside the company to build what you want to build. Alternatively, you could apply for a job at a different company doing something related to your idea, and pitch the management there on your idea to create a new team around this technology. “Intrapreneurship” (creating innovative technology within an existing company) is just as valid as entrepreneurship, and often more effective due to the ability to leverage the potentially massive distribution channels of the established business.

If you could tell other young people one thing about why they should consider making a positive impact on our environment or society, like you, what would you tell them?

Always think every single day, morning and night, about those less fortunate than yourself. Make and execute concrete plans to help them. Anyone reading this interview lives in a time of high technology & prosperity, unprecedented global peace, and long lifespans. You speak English and can afford a computer or a phone. So many people throughout history and in the world today are living in situations much less fortunate than you, working greater hours than you do to barely survive in conditions far below the poverty line. Many of the world’s poorest people have to work 90 to 100 hours per week just to survive, while dealing with livelong exposure to terrifying diseases and the threat of violent conflict. You can help these people. Every time you go spend 100 dollars on something fancy for yourself you are missing the chance to help someone who is truly in desperate need. It only costs approximately 3,000 dollars — 5,000 dollars to save a human life. Given how much good your money can do elsewhere in the world, do you really need a big house or a fast car? If you were in crushing poverty, wouldn’t you hope and dream that those with the means and money of the people in America today might be willing to help? You are in a privileged position in history and in the world where you can *literally* save lives and can *literally* be a hero. Think of how many lives Batman or Spider-man saves by fighting crime. You can save the same number of lives by using your money to save people! Help animals too. Saving animals is even more affordable than saving people. Although animals are less intelligent than people, they are still sentient, and it is estimated that a pig or a dolphin has about the same level of sentience as a human toddler. Simply by switching from eating meat to being vegetarian, you can save approximately the equivalent of between 1 to 3 human-equivalent lives every year. In addition to being vegetarian, you can invest money into startup companies that are creating vegan alternatives to animal meat — look for the next generation of companies that will become the next Impossible Foods or the next Beyond Meat. You can be a hero! You literally have the power to literally *save lives*! Get out there and be the hero that your grandchildren will admire forever.

Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would like to have a private breakfast or lunch, and why? He or she might just see this, especially if we tag them. 🙂

I would most like to be able to meet with Eric Schmidt (former CEO / executive chairman of Google, and currently the founding chairman of the DoD Defense Innovation Board). He has a lot of influence on the US government and is advocating for the government, and especially the military, to accelerate the adoption of A.I. My views are almost the exact opposite — I believe that A.I., and especially military A.I., needs to be slowed down. I know he is very smart and talented and has much more experience than I do, but perhaps he might still be willing to have an open-minded discussion and see if there might be an opportunity for both of us to moderate our views and perhaps result in a slower and more cautious pace of A.I. adoption.

How can our readers further follow your work online?

Check out our website ! If you have Google Chrome, you can install our prototype browser extension that integrates with Twitter. You can install it by visiting . It takes the tweets on the twitter homepage and rearranges them to try to bring the tweets to the top that are likely to be best for your mental health and personal development. These characteristics (i.e. what defines whether a certain tweet is good for you) are determined by nonprofit organizations, subject-matter experts, and a few for-profit social ventures. Each of these organizations is an expert in a particular field of helping the world (e.g. early childhood education, or pandemic response, or gender equity). Collectively, we call these organizations Value Providers, and all of the Value Providers have an influence in affecting which tweets will rise to the top of your Twitter feed. In the near future, we will give you a settings menu where you can customize how much or how little you agree with each of the Value Providers. That way, you can really customize your Twitter feed you match your personal ethical values that you hold dear. The prototype is an early prototype and has lots of bugs, so if you find any, or have any ideas for how to make it better, you may email me directly with your ideas and feedback! My email address is . Thank you so much in advance for giving it a shot and for any helpful feedback you might have in how to make this software even better at enabling self-expression of your ethical values online!

Thank you so much for joining us. This was very inspirational, and we wish you continued success in your important work.

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