Define your expectations: I personally disagree with the adage turn your passion into your job; I think this can lead to unrealistic expectations. I would instead encourage job seekers to write out things that are meaningful to them at work (leveraging their strengths, having more freedom, having a steady income, having more overall benefits, having fun, etc.) and prioritize them accordingly. Looking at a prioritized list can help you determine where to make compromises in your search. This is also true when assuming employment should always be full-time employment. There’s been an influx of services and platforms oriented towards making benefits affordable for freelancers, such as healthcare. It’s also possible to “DIY” your career, by pursuing a “job for now” and a “job for the future.” For example, I worked as a waitress while trying to break into HR consulting, to fill the financial gap while building my client list.
There have been major disruptions in recent years that promise to change the very nature of work. From the ongoing shifts caused by the COVID19 pandemic, the impacts caused by automation, and other possible disruptions to the status quo, many wonder what the future holds in terms of employment. For example, a report by the McKinsey Global Institute that estimated automation will eliminate 73 million jobs by 2030.
To address this open question, we reached out to successful leaders in business, government, and labor, as well as thought leaders about the future of work to glean their insights and predictions on the future of work and the workplace.
As a part of this interview series called “Preparing For The Future Of Work”, we had the pleasure to interview Ali Greene.
Ali is the co-founder of Remote Works, an organizational design and consulting firm, with an upcoming book under the same title. The former Director of People at DuckDuckGo, Ali has experience growing the fully distributed team from 30 people to nearly 100 people; and was most recently sharing her remote work expertise as Head of Culture and Community at Oyster, where she hosted their Distributed Discussions podcast. With over six years of remote work experience, and four years leading remote teams while traveling full-time, Ali has recently transitioned from digital nomad life to life as an expat. Ali spends her time helping people and companies thrive in making work more freeing, flexible, and focused.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Our readers like to get an idea of who you are and where you came from. Can you tell us a bit about your background? Where do you come from? What are the life experiences that most shaped your current self?
Thanks for having me!
Usually when I share my story about leaving the office for digital nomad or remote work life, I start with a story about trading in Madison Avenue for Machu Picchu. It goes something like this…
The year was 2014 and I was stuck in an office job. I had moved from Washington D.C., where I was a “Jill of All Trades” for an international tech start-up, to a trendy part of Brooklyn, with my own apartment and my “dream” job.
Spoiler alert: It was not my dream job. The commute, the office culture, in by 8 and out by 6, left me little time to explore my own passions and interests. So, after many months of planning, I walked into the office and quit.
I was able to stay in my role as a consultant and continue to develop my skills and grow my expertise while traveling and working remotely. That experience opened more doors and gave me freedom to explore; I backpacked around South America, worked in bakeries, and consulted on Human Resources. Then, I landed a new job as the first People Ops hire for a fully remote company, DuckDuckGo… and now many years and 40+ countries later, I am the co-founder of my own remote work consulting agency and writing a book on the subject.
However, the real story goes beyond the cliche. I was not just a 20-something, disgruntled millennial fed up with office culture, fortunate enough to quit a job and chase after my dreams. Though, I do recognize both how that is a part of my story, and also how my privilege enabled me to take those risks. This is something that I hope will change in the future, given it’s been critical to my personal development.
The underlying theme of my own journey has been questioning the status quo. While questioning has always been an innate part of my personality, I can remember three key moments that made me look at life (and therefore work!) differently.
Lesson One: The only constant is change. I was born outside Detroit, MI and when I was starting elementary school, we moved to Florida where I attended four different middle schools. I was perpetually the “new kid” — learned how to adjust and adapt, not just to new temperatures but also to new social surroundings. It was this experience of constant change that I attribute to the “why” behind my decision to live nomadically in my adult life. By working and living abroad, I have gained an appreciation for different perspectives, cultures, and definitions of happiness and success.
Lesson Two: Do not let work define you. There’s more to life than your job. Let’s just say that for most of my academic career, I was Type A (in all caps) and took school very seriously. I was essentially a workaholic in training. One summer between the end of the semester and the beginning of an internship, I found myself home from university and in the emergency room. My younger brother, who had just graduated high school, came to visit, and lectured me on the importance of having fun. A couple weeks later he passed away in an accident. That was the last real conversation we ever had. From him, I learned there is more to life than work. Whenever I’m caught up in the stress of it all, I remember that life is too short to not prioritize the people and things you love.
Lesson Three: Prioritize your health and manage your energy. This may sound obvious, but it’s something that full-time employment does not allow employees to wholly embody. Earlier this year, I was diagnosed with a rare chronic condition which affects my ability to focus, not to mention the migraines, tinnitus, and fatigue I battle daily. As a business owner, I have full control over my schedule. I work when I have the energy. Even with “reasonable accommodation,” I’m not sure that I could work in a traditional environment and am grateful for my journey that led to greater freedom and flexibility.
I know this answer might be longer than most introductions, but my hope in sharing my experiences, both recent and past, is to inspire readers to look at their own lives, as well as the lives of their employees, teammates, and clients with fresh eyes. I’d like them to ask: “how can we all be doing things differently?”
What do you expect to be the major disruptions for employers in the next 10–15 years? How should employers pivot to adapt to these disruptions?
I expect most disruptions to be human-led. As the old optics of “work” crumble and power shifts from the employer to the employee (who can, should, and will demand a work experience where respect is a bare minimum), we’ll hopefully see a downfall in toxic work cultures, management styles and bosses who think they can lead indiscriminately yet loudly from the corner office.
We are seeing this with the “Great Resignation,” in which more Americans are quitting their jobs than ever before. It’s not just in the USA, but worldwide. This summer in France and Spain, I heard stories from countless restaurateurs who were struggling to find workers, especially seasonal staff, as many workers re-skilled themselves during the COVID lockdowns and were pursuing new career paths. In China, there’s been a movement called “tangping” (to lie flat) that calls for young workers to opt out of the traditional trappings of workplace and consumeristic success. Employers need to find ways to remain attractive to top talent and understand that “what got them here won’t get them there” as the saying goes.
Employee demands now include increased mental health benefits, more flexibility, and alternative work arrangements. Talent will also no longer be limited to opportunities within driving distance from their homes, but rather, through the power of the internet and computing, will be able to access opportunities beyond their country’s borders as remote work and mobile coverage increases world-wide.
Alternatively, I also believe we will see more disruptions outside of our control, whether that be natural disasters, pandemics, political instability, and social issues that create uncertainty in our economies and our lives. Employers will need to realize that they might not always be the top priority in their employees’ lives, nor should they be. They will need to learn how to support their teams through difficult and uncertain times and reprioritize business objectives as needed.
Remote work, when done right, can help ensure more stability on both sides. Employers can proactively hire from previously sidelined communities such as refugees, military spouses, persons with disabilities, and other underrepresented groups, which should strengthen economies while providing equitable opportunities to all. To accomplish this, companies will need to invest in manager training and wellness benefits to ensure impacted employees feel supported in turbulent times.
While many people will focus on technological disruptions for employers in the next few years, the biggest pivot, in my opinion, will be that employers will be asked to be more human. They can start by asking themselves, “How can we continue to enhance the work experience for our employees so that they (and therefore our business) can thrive?”
The choice as to whether or not a young person should pursue a college degree was once a “no-brainer”. But with the existence of many high profile millionaires (and billionaires) who did not earn degrees, as well as the fact that many graduates are saddled with crushing student loan debt and unable to find jobs it has become a much more complex question. What advice would you give to young adults considering whether or not to go to college?
My advice is to ask yourself: “why?”. Identify your goals and then determine whether pursuing a college degree will help achieve those goals, or potentially add more roadblocks to your desired path. Many people immediately assume they will go on to higher education, or will not, based on their financial and family circumstances (e.g., if they can afford it, if their parents did or expect them to go, what the norm is in their socio-economic upbringing, etc.). Few take a step back and challenge the standard they were brought up to believe and ask whether it is a good fit for their current and future goals in life.
On one hand, University is a tool, a means to a goal. The main historical goal was to obtain knowledge and expertise in a certain subject matter. In today’s world, this goal can be obtained in many ways. Now, more than ever, we have democratized true learning. If you want to learn the Spanish language, for example, you can download free apps to learn Spanish, watch YouTube videos in Spanish, listen to Podcasts, hire a tutor over Zoom or even immerse yourself in a Spanish speaking community. Same is true for topics such as marketing, finance, web development, sociology, sewing, photography, and more.
Of course, there are subjects where institutional certification is a barrier to entry, making higher education a non-negotiable — becoming a lawyer or doctor for example is still deeply rooted in the traditional educational journey.
Outside of certifications needed for specific work, it is important to consider the idea of university not only as a center for learning but also as an institution. One that still prevails in a lot of elite circles in society, from a brand and reputation perspective, and for certain subgroups that may be slower to change. In my time working in Human Resources, I have already noticed a shift from early on in my career where name-brand degrees got noticed by recruitment teams to less than a decade later while leading a global, remote talent acquisition team, where we filled roles based on proven competencies not degrees, especially as we considered a global talent pool.
The final consideration to keep in mind is how this might impact self-development. For me, my four-years away at university in another country (Canada!) helped me to learn how to manage my own apartment, live with roommates and navigate potential conflicts. It taught me the joy of cooking and the pain of staying true to my obligations, especially after a big night out. It taught me to grow into my adulthood from a foundation of personal accountability and interpersonal skills that I learned in a safe and supportive environment with others learning the same lessons. However, this is not the only way, place, or age to learn these lessons, so again, it is just another consideration when analyzing the value a college experience will bring.
In summary, my advice for young people is to think of college as one tool and use a framework of goal setting and self-reflection to determine if it is the right tool in your toolkit to utilize.
Despite the doom and gloom predictions, there are, and likely still will be, jobs available. How do you see job seekers having to change their approaches to finding not only employment but employment that fits their talents and interests?
I think job seekers should prepare themselves in a few ways:
- Create multiple income streams: By diversifying where your income comes from (investing, side gigs/freelancing, creating passive income opportunities, etc.) you protect yourself financially from one job loss equaling the loss of total income. You’ll also satisfy different talents and interests via different income streams, or at least buy yourself more time to hold out for a role that will be a great fit.
- Define your expectations: I personally disagree with the adage turn your passion into your job; I think this can lead to unrealistic expectations. I would instead encourage job seekers to write out things that are meaningful to them at work (leveraging their strengths, having more freedom, having a steady income, having more overall benefits, having fun, etc.) and prioritize them accordingly. Looking at a prioritized list can help you determine where to make compromises in your search. This is also true when assuming employment should always be full-time employment. There’s been an influx of services and platforms oriented towards making benefits affordable for freelancers, such as healthcare. It’s also possible to “DIY” your career, by pursuing a “job for now” and a “job for the future.” For example, I worked as a waitress while trying to break into HR consulting, to fill the financial gap while building my client list.
- Reach out locally and globally: Jobs are no longer limited to your geographic location thanks to remote work! During the pandemic, my network of people who are passionate about People Operations and Remote Work grew exponentially, more than ever before. Find your niche and network! There are plenty of Slack groups, LinkedIn connections, webinars, and other virtual events you can use to build your community.
- Don’t be afraid to ask: The worst thing you can hear is no, right? Even if there is no job posted, it never hurts to write that LinkedIn message, Instagram DM (if appropriate), or email to your favorite company or career idol and see if there is a project you can collaborate on together or if they can keep you in mind for future work. Building relationships will never go out of style.
The statistics of artificial intelligence and automation eliminating millions of jobs appear frightening to some. For example, Walmart aims to eliminate cashiers altogether and Dominos is instituting pizza delivery via driverless vehicles. How should people plan their careers such that they can hedge their bets against being replaced by automation or robots?
It is important to remember technology is not inherently good or evil, but rather how and why we use it can be — which is where the Sci-Fi movies of killer robots and AI taking us all outcomes into the picture (or on the big screens). Even with the onset of automation, it will still be critical to possess knowledge of the programming language and the technology, or else, we’ll let a machine become our single source of failure. While this seems like a scary threat, it is important to remember the shift will not happen all at once, which gives workers time to shift their skill set with the advancements of technology. Furthermore, as builders of this technology, it is our job to define how we will let AI and other tools help us in our work, not replace us. At the end of the day, just because something can be done by a machine does not mean we want it to be. It can be an opportunity to redefine how to work with the tools we are creating, not against them, in order to create more productivity and prosperity for all. (How’s that for some utopian idealism!)
Technological advances and pandemic restrictions hastened the move to working from home. Do you see this trend continuing? Why or why not?
100%, but I will correct it to “work from anywhere.” I think it is important to remember (at least for knowledge workers) work is something we do, not a place we go.
My biggest fear is that a lot of companies are confusing and conflating working from home during a pandemic with enforced restrictions, with true remote work during “normal” times. We are calling this a failed experiment, when in fact, it was an emergency response to a crisis.
We must remember that what we experienced the past 18+ months is not normal. We had restrictions preventing people from leaving their homes. We had increased stress levels from managing caretaking responsibilities, childcare responsibilities, homeschooling, and remote working. We had managers and companies left with little time to prepare a remote work strategy and instead, adapted by copying and pasting the traditional office culture to employees’ laptops (hello Zoom!).
Once employers let go of their preconceived notion about their remote work trial with the caveats of a pandemic, they’ll start reconsidering the sunk costs of the office that they are still paying rent on and asking themselves critical questions, like “why” they want to organize their business a certain way — fully distributed, hybrid, or co-located. Going forward, they can make a decision that fully aligns with their values as an organization and lean into the benefits remote work can offer for both employers and employees.
On the employer side, remote work offers a global talent pool, increasing diversity and inclusion for their organization and access to top talent. Global coverage inherently improves on-the-ground market insights and operations from customer service and IT troubleshooting experience. Plus, it has been proven to be a more flexible, productive, and engaging environment for employees if and when the remote culture is intentionally nurtured. Taking it one step further, remote work can positively impact the environment through decreased commuting times and “brain-drains,” plaguing rural and otherwise forgotten communities by giving people a choice on where to call home.
With all these benefits, the challenges of remote work things like isolation, collaboration challenges, IT security, and finding a new work routine are hurdles that can be easily overcome with a bit of a fresh perspective and continued learning and development at all levels of an organization.
What societal changes do you foresee as necessary to support the fundamental changes to work?
I see two immediate things that need to happen. First, I believe we should decouple basic living needs from employers. For example, health benefits in the United States too often serve as “handcuffs” to a job.
Second, we need investment in infrastructure, especially in rural communities. Access to a stable, affordable, internet connection is table stakes for remote work to WORK across all corners of the world.
I believe moving forward there will be a stronger emphasis on public and private partnerships to support community needs. When visualizing communities of the future, I see urban centers and town halls with spaces dedicated to wellness, promoting fitness, socializing, connection, and co-working. I can imagine this being a space sponsored by a company alongside other civic initiatives: the “watering hole” of the future.
What changes do you think will be the most difficult for employers to accept? What changes do you think will be the most difficult for employees to accept?
Employers will need to learn how to trust employees and let go of the perception of control that working in an office provides. As work shifts from being evaluated on inputs to outputs, leaders will need to get better at defining what success looks like. No longer will hours worked be the main approximation for defining “done.”.
Employees will need to learn how to set clear boundaries and expectations and then stick to them (or risk being taken advantage of in a hyper-connected environment). They will need to advocate for themselves in remote work culture and become skilled at documentation and written communication.
The COVID-19 pandemic helped highlight the inadequate social safety net that many workers at all pay levels have. Is this something that you think should be addressed? In your opinion how should this be addressed?
Yes. There are some fundamental changes I believe that need to be made in attitudes and beliefs. I hope we can find a way to increase awareness around a “life worth living” and examine the values that our society is built upon.
I think back to a prediction made by John Maynard Keynes that with the advancement of technology, we will all be working less (15–21 hours per week), have more leisure time, and live with progressively higher standards of living. However, the “keeping up with the Jones’s” mentality has led to more competition, more work, and a bigger divide between the wealthy and those below the poverty level.
I believe this competition, coupled with the downfall of social clubs and a focus on single-family homes, also led to a destruction of our strong social safety nets, especially as current issues make communities more polarized in their opposite opinions.
I am not sure if we will see this course correct in my lifetime (I can hope!) but I think asking ourselves more questions about what type of society we want to live, leading with vulnerability, and seeking to understand and connect, is a good place to start.
Despite all that we have said earlier, what is your greatest source of optimism about the future of work?
That we have evolved in the past and will continue to evolve in the future.
We have seen humanity evolve from agricultural work to factory work to knowledge and office work. With the passing of each Industrial Revolution, we have confirmed a few things about people and work of the future: change is constant, people are resilient, and we will adapt.
I am optimistic that the next evolution will be more freeing, fairer, more flexible, and more empowering.
Historically, major disruptions to the status quo in employment, particularly disruptions that result in fewer jobs, are temporary with new jobs replacing the jobs lost. Unfortunately, there has often been a gap between job losses and the growth of new jobs. What do you think we can do to reduce the length of this gap?
Workers need to learn how to flex their skills outside the functional scope of their role. A former retail store manager might make a great project manager; a project manager might make an excellent chief of staff. Viewing oneself as a set of transferable competencies, rather than simply a “waitress” or an “accountant” or “sales rep” can help one transition from one job to another. Business leaders need to be more flexible in filling jobs with non-standard backgrounds. In the research study conducted by McKinsey Global Institute focused on the foundational skills required in the future workforce, it was interesting to see many competencies described as a mix of skills and attitudes, that could be transferred from one job to another.
I believe we can do this in three ways:
- Employers should focus on hiring for competencies needed to do a job plus the learning agility of a worker, rather than the technical or functional skillset required today. Employers should learn how to quickly onboard new employees and teach them how to do a job, while on the job.
- Individuals need to embrace a growth mindset in their own lives and seek out opportunities to learn and develop their emotional and cognitive intelligence.
- Governments should focus on education reform using these competencies as a base curriculum to promote foundational skills starting in early education all the way through adult-learning programs.
Remote work will also help reduce the length of this gap, especially during the ebbs and flows in certain geographical markets. Both employers and employees will have access to the global talent pool and global job market to seek employment today while building out the skills for the job needed tomorrow.
Okay, wonderful. Here is the main question of our interview. What are your “Top 5 Trends To Watch In the Future of Work?” (Please share a story or example for each.)
1. Asynchronous Work
Remote Work is already the “now.” Companies such as LinkedIn, Shopify, Coinbase, Twitter, Facebook, and more have opted to keep remote as part of their workplace operations post-pandemic. Most recently Gitlab made headlines as the first fully remote organization to file for an IPO. What comes next is Remote Work 2.0 — or to quote Matt Mullenweg’s Distributed Work’s Five Levels of Autonomy, “Remote Work Nirvana,” which is heavily dependent on the adoption of asynchronous mindsets and communication.
Think back to what you first imagined when you thought about working from home? Did you picture no commute, wearing comfy clothes, taking breaks to work out or pick up your children from school? Maybe you planned to travel more, or work from the cool coffee shop down the street? But, in reality, many have been struck by the zombie apocalypse we call “zoom fatigue.” Working hours have increased and people are reporting having more meetings than ever. Well, Remote 2.0 will change all of that, bring remote work back to what it should be.
Asynchronous is a standard is what we can expect moving forward. Asynchronous Communication, where two or more people/objects are not participating at the same time, will offer a way to enhance the autonomous experience of workers in a remote company and help reduce challenges such as communication fatigue and burnout while increasing transparency and productivity. In the future, asynchronous communication will move away from only being about written communication and utilize project management, video, and audio tools. It will also move from being only about human-to-human communication and incorporate Person to System and System to People communications as well.
2. Anytime Work
As work becomes more remote and more connected, there is growing pressure to always be available. To combat this, countries are instituting experiments to limit the hours people work. Scotland and Spain are both trialing four-day workweeks noting success in New Zealand and Iceland. Back in 2017, France implemented laws protecting workers against checking email while out of the office.
As the lines between work and life continue to blur, however, are these laws helping or holding us back? In the new world of work, who is to say work needs to get done Monday to Friday between the hours of 9–5? And as the workforce becomes more global whose 9–5 will we follow?
I expect as companies begin to decentralize, we will adapt to a new model of “time” that takes time zones, personal obligations, and workstyle preferences into consideration. Coupled with the rise of asynchronous communication and a focus on outputs, time will matter only for the occasional live meeting, in which case the ‘Most Respectful Meeting Time’ will reign supreme.
3. Anywhere Work
In the past, people moved to bustling job markets, like New York City, London, Tokyo, and San Francisco, to be competitive in the market, sometimes leaving behind friends, family, and even their home country. Remote work has not only paused the negative effects of “brain drain” but is also reversing it in some cases, as towns and even countries are competing for individuals’ attention.
We will continue to see individual incentive programs as a trend such as Tulsa Remote, Ascend West Virginia, Think Vermont, and Remote Tucson that offers grants, relocation services, and in some cases cash incentives to people with remote jobs to relocate to these budding communities. And it is not just towns around the USA getting in on the action — across the globe “Digital Nomad Visas” are popping up in Georgia, Croatia, Cabo Verde, Antigua, Barbados, Curaçao, and at least 30 other nations.
This competition for knowledge workers and their paychecks will continue as the trickle-down impact on local economies continues to be weighed. Regardless of whether employees choose now to stay close to home, move to a city or the countryside, not immigrate for a job, or to become location independent, employers will also need to keep up. Future employers will need international and local knowledge that can keep up with their global team. Expanding expertise in Legal, Finance, and HR functions and partnering with global experts for things like employment contracts, remote policies and benefits, payroll, and all the other fine print to keep their global teams running will become critical to their success.
4. Alternative Employment Structures
Flexing away from full-time employment as the norm is the next step in flexibility. In the future, we will see new employment approaches such as engaging with part-time workers, freelancers, and contractors working on a per-project basis.
For part-time workers, this option enables personal choice and balance across multiple areas of life: work, health, caretaking, and personal time. Companies also benefit; they can retain top talent who have alternative career goals and generate successful outcomes with fewer resources.
For freelancers and contractors, having multiple outlets to use their expertise: increases work flexibility, stimulates creativity, provides them more control, and allows room to explore new interests. For businesses, it allows supplemental expertise in solving specific business problems, creates an environment for knowledge sharing on non-sensitive business issues, and allows for feedback and innovation from questioning the assumptions of one business’ “way of doing things.”
Job-Sharing is also a model that will become more accepted, creating a system where a job traditionally held by one person is split between two people, immediately getting the benefits of the saying “two heads are better than one.” There are different ways to split up a role, based on an employee’s interests or strengths, specific expertise, and knowledge, or by focusing on pairing of two diverse perspectives, such as inter-generational or cross-cultural team members.
5. Company Culture & The Great Divide
The last trend I see happening is that trends in workplace culture will become increasingly polarized and opposing strategies will gain traction concurrently.
On one hand, I see employers taking a bigger responsibility in the employee experience. Focusing on increased benefits impacting aspects of an employee’s life such as physical and mental well-being, financial acumen, and socialization through extensive virtual team building.
On the opposite side, I think decoupling of benefits and focusing on a decentralized approach is another route some organizations may take. Instead of tying the services directly to employment, some companies will focus on creating a culture of psychological safety and offer a strong financial salary that will allow employees to seek these support systems outside of the organization. In this example, policies instead of benefits can ensure employees and contractors know how to take advantage of the time off to seek such benefits for themselves when needed.
The same polarization can be expanded to topics of the moment such as employee privacy rights versus employer tracking in virtual environments, the blurred lines between business and political and social issues, and even the concept of “coworkers” and the necessity to have social events at work. This means companies will have to spend more intentional time defining where on the spectrum they want to fall and why to ensure they gain alignment from team members joining their workforce.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how this quote has shaped your perspective?
“Don’t confuse having a career with having a life.” — Hillary Clinton
I think there is a tendency to conflate our personal identity with our job title and when that goes away the results can be devastating. By examining our holistic lives, what is important, not important, we have a chance to relate more to each other, to have empathy for our neighbor, and to view people’s success based on their whole life not just their job title or the paycheck they bring home.
We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch, and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them.
I would love to meet James Hickman, or as many know him Simon Black, the Founder of Sovereign Man, and hear how his journey unraveled as a traveler and entrepreneur. I think a conversation about financial and political freedom, investing, and traveling would be interesting, challenging, and thought-provoking. James, I would love to learn from you and would only hope I could keep up!
Our readers often like to follow our interview subjects’ careers. How can they further follow your work online?
I am most active on LinkedIn and readers can connect with me directly there. I also have a website for my book and workshops www.remoteworksbook.com and share some thoughts from time to time on Medium.
Thank you for these fantastic insights. We greatly appreciate the time you spent on this. We wish you continued success and good health.
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